Intermediate Superbike - Please Read

Discussion in 'Racing at Mission' started by Ryan Whittle, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. adam0289

    adam0289 New Member

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    urguhart, you have the balls to take a shot at me for not wanting to go from never riding a sportbike straight to pro in 3 weekends because there is money on the table, yet you think its ok for a 2 or 3 year intermediate to skip superbike cause its "scary.
     
  2. amartin

    amartin Member

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    Constructive Suggestion # 2

    Ok then ...

    My first suggestion went up like a lead balloon and admittedly it was a little drastic. Here's a second one:

    Keep the class structure and designation as is. Continue to have novice, intermediate and expert. However, consider novice a shorter stepping stone and be more strict with the intermediate class.

    Just as it is today, the point of novice is to prove that you can race in intermediate. You don't need to be fast, you just need to prove that you are safe and understand the flags, how to enter and exit the track and race. However we change our stance and DO NOT allow a novice to race anything except the novice class. Have two 6 lap races per day. After a minimum of 2 races (some have previous experience - some are just naturals) you are eligible to be considered for intermediate (with your rider rep / executives permission of course). At first the novice crowd won't like this because they don't get enough seat time, but the truth is - we don't want you in novice - we want you in intermediate - so prove you're safe and then the world that is WMRC is opened to you in the intermediate classes.

    Then tighten up intermediate. There is the idea out there that everyone should get their chance for glory in intermediate. I agree but to a point. Lets say everyone should get to race a season of intermediate. If you want to go for the intermediate championship - do your novice in the fall as prep for a full season as intermediate. If you ever exceed a 118 laptime you will be bumped. If you've already had more than a seasons worth, you'll be bumped right away. If you haven't, you'll be bumped the next season.

    This would prevent fast guys from spending years in intermediate. Some won't like it because they didn't get *their* shot, but too bad. It didn't happen for plenty of the current experts (you can figure this out by looking in the past years results). They were bumped to expert at the discretion of the executive - NOT because they finished top 3 (or top 5 in 2 - see the rulebook), and it was a good thing, both for the racers and for the expert grid.

    Then make the first Superbike a 6 lap race and use the results to qualify racers for the afternoon race. If you don't make the cut, then you get to race in Superbike 'B' (it will replace F118). If you do, then you race in Superbike 'A' the main event.
     
  3. adam0289

    adam0289 New Member

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    the 6 lap superbike qualifier is not a bad idea, followed by a 15 lap 'A' superbike race and a 10 lap 'B' superbike(replace f118) if there is not enough riders it becomes just an 'A' main. I suspect if we eliminated f118 and maybe some other classes this format would rock. AMARTEN is very smart
     
  4. dasein

    dasein WMRRA #24

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    If I understand, there is a frequent suggestion here, stated directly or implicitly, that novice graduation should be based on lap time.

    If I could add one comment to the mix, I would say that that lap time should also be no more than... say 10% faster than the slowest lap the novice ran in the graduating race.

    If you can do that after two races, up you go. If not... the rider is maybe not quite consistent enough for intermediate yet.

    So if you are running 1:20 generally, and pull off a 1:14, you are still novice.

    Now, on my sixth or so race, I am sure noticing the grouping getting tighter on my... perceived lap times (cause I don't really know how I was each lap till the results from August are posted).

    But I suspect a slight improvement in consistency, and I think that likely reflects some improvement in control, track knowledge, and fitness: three things that might also be important in a fledgling intermediate.
     
  5. amartin

    amartin Member

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    Novice is all about being safe and the club is really good about making sure novices are safe before bumping. We probably don't want to deviate from that. Additionally, if we were better about getting fast intermediates into expert, it shouldn't be as "scary" getting out of novice so i wouldn't think a minimum lap time need be a hard rule (of course that doesn't rule out common sense).

    As far as doing a 120's then a one-off 114, the only time that happens is when someone puts another beacon further up the wall. It happened at the last track day.

    But if you are a novice consistently doing 120's, i think you should ask to be considered for intermediate.

    I can't speak for novice but if fitness was a requirement for expert, the only expert would be Spero.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
  6. m_raison

    m_raison New Member

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    The point of this thread is about the superbike race. I'm not the expert here, but from what i can tell, I don't think there is a problem with with the way that novice, Intermediate, and expert are handled. But i like the idea of taking F118 out and replacing it with an "A" and "B" superbike race determined by the first, shorter, superbike race before lunch. This way, some novices will want to get bumped sooner rather than taking their time and using F118 as a transition. Just my opinion.
     
  7. urquhart

    urquhart New Member

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    Since nobody has mentioned them and Alex doesnt check the forums as much as we might I'll ask it.

    What becomes of Vintage? They ran with F118 as it was deemed the safest place for their top speeds.
     
  8. Ryan Whittle

    Ryan Whittle Rider of Orange V-Twins

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    I don't see getting rid of F118 as an option as it is currently one of the most popular classes. Austen, you've given some really god feedback, I appreciate that.

    Some of the feedback I have gotten that was not posted up is that last weekend it was so damn hot that riders didn't want to enter superbike. I'm sure the faster expert riders can attest to the fatigue they encountered while learning their race craft in Intermediate classes.

    Others don't want to get in the way of the experts as they do not want to affect the outcome of the top expert group. Not a matter of being scared to be lapped, but rather they don't want to screw up someone else race.
     
  9. ken lalonde

    ken lalonde New Member

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    Just get on your bike and race. I will never put blame on someone that I lapped because you are part of the show, so man up riders and learn from the fastest class we have, that is why Superbike is combined.
     
  10. dasein

    dasein WMRRA #24

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    Well, regarding lap times, two fellow novices have claimed just that. Those claims were previous to the last track day.

    Recently, I think Al ran a 1:15, while most of his laps are much slower. Just look at the 1:18 results from last round. Compare his times in the novice heats.

    And as for fitness, I have definately noticed that I am feeling better on the bike in the "crotchal region". Like, my adductors are definately stronger, dude.

    Mark, I was responding to the comment above that suggested moving people out of novice faster to pump up intermediate. I have no opinion on the superbike stuff, not in that league.

    Me love F 1:18. Me love F 1:18 long time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  11. TommyO

    TommyO Daytonut

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    Awww, c'mon!......Adam is no slouch either!....... I think we should set up a ring behind the grandstand and have a 'battle' for the 'title' of the fittest racer!.......We could call it.....'Taste of Wrestling'.........:D
     
  12. Jacalyn

    Jacalyn Thread killer....

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    Glad to hear as that's one of my favourites! I hope to podium one day in that class after I solve this parasite problem..... ;)

    I applaud the executive for trying to maintain the club. It must be difficult to please both the really fast racers who want the best competition and are always impressive to watch (but think F118 is a waste of time), and also offer classes that keep the rest of us entertained and coming back for more and leaving our money in registration.
     
  13. Ryan Whittle

    Ryan Whittle Rider of Orange V-Twins

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    Let's try to keep on topic. We are not going to get rid of Intermediate. We are not going to get rid of F118.

    Using last weekend as an example, there were 14 starters in I600, 15 starters in IOSS, then 6 riders in ISBK. That is the issue.
     
  14. bsa_414

    bsa_414 WMRC Formula Classic Rep

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    I do check the threads fairly regularly... I just tend to not post a lot of my opinions :)

    Personally, I'd like to see time bracket racing for the intermediates or the slower experts - based anywhere between 6 and 8 seconds, and two races a day. Say F113, F119, F125 and F131. Purely based on time, who cares what you ride. If you can make a moped go 125's you're in! :)

    As for the vintage guys/gals, we currently race in several faster classes in which we are allowed. But you are right F118/Vintage has been a core class for us and I'd hate to see it go.

    And a comment to the person that was questioning number colours and how they relate to speed... You cannot make an old bike do 120's easily... However they do take a lot of skill to make them go around the track in the 125's+. Remember, we have skinny tires, 18" wheels, no more than 60 ponies at the rear wheel, bad suspension, and oh not so modern brakes.

    cheers
     
  15. bsa_414

    bsa_414 WMRC Formula Classic Rep

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    And thanks for remembering / sticking up for us David! Way to go.When you come back to racing I'll loan you a vintage bike for a weekend, and I'd like it if you raced with us...
     
  16. urquhart

    urquhart New Member

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    "Remember, we have skinny tires, 18" wheels, no more than 60 ponies at the rear wheel, bad suspension, and oh not so modern brakes."


    "When you come back to racing I'll loan you a vintage bike for a weekend, and I'd like it if you raced with us... "


    thanks Alex, truely, but i havent the balls to race your breed of machine... I'd rather do superbike :)
     
  17. Jimi

    Jimi JIMI

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    I'm here to have a good time battling with other rider's, doesn't matter if I was doing

    slow or fast. The point of club racing to me is having a good time with friends and

    some friendly competetion. Oh and a few beers.
     
  18. Simon

    Simon New Member

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    Alot of people were broke this year, so I bet that would explain alot of the issues.

    I also don't like intermediate, no offense but to me, its a class where you hide for a year or 2 until you become man or woman enough to race with the big boys, :p

    I know I am not alone in this thinking but when I was novice, all I could think about was getting out of it, and when i did, I'll never forget Sullivan and co lapping me at PIR, pretty humbling but boy, you learn FAST. I also remember pleading to race with the big boys at Chilliwack and had a blast, :D

    Now this year, I almost quit for good, I hurt my shoulder at work, lost alot of weight and fitness, begged my physio to let me race, she said fine but take it easy, get hit first race out and receive a concussion and hurt myself again, came back out and didn't have fun at all and if I am not having fun, I am done, so skipped the 2nd to last weekend and rode the last weekend, I had fun again so I am back, sure I didn't place up front like I used to but I had a ton of fun so I am back and that's what this should be about, FUN!
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  19. Norm

    Norm New Member

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    I hope it's not too late to add my two bits' worth...

    This past year I focused on F40 and Int Supersport, and it was for the reasons below that I only tried Int Open 600 one double weekend and never tried Int Superbike.

    Fitness: In my first Intermediate year I was fresh off competing in triathlons and I had no trouble doing two practice sessions, two qualifying races and two mains. I missed the next year due to being too busy trucking, and when I returned this past year I was out of shape. There was no way I could safely do three classes. After having experienced being out of shape, I can now understand why some racers wouldn't want to over-extend themselves and risk injury to themselves or others.

    Finances: Never mind racing a newer bike, some of us can barely afford to race our older bikes and consequently we don't want to risk damaging our bikes in "optional" classes over and above the classes we're focusing on.

    Racebikes: I race an '01 R6 which would have qualified for Heavyweight Superbike (a bit of a misnomer maybe as that's a class for older bikes). For reasons mentioned below, I chose F40 as my first class. For my second class I chose Int Supersport as I figured I could compete in that class. I didn't even consider commiting to Int Open 600 or Int Superbike as I figured those classes would have bikes that mine couldn't compete against.

    Competition: I like the enthusiasm shown by the Novices and how they're eager to progress to Expert. That was my goal, and I chose F40 as my first class as it seemed an established and stable class that would give me the opportunity to learn by competing amongst not-quite-so-crazy-fast Experts. It was fun, and I hope that class gets stronger. Then, when I tried Int Open 600 one double weekend, I finished mid-pack after starting at the back. That was also fun, and when I can return in better condition I'll commit to that class as a third class. However, I wouldn't even consider Int Superbike unless I could race a newer bike.

    If all I wanted to do was get my money's worth tearing around a track, I'd do track days. However, I'm in it for the competition and - yes, I'll admit it - the chance for a moment of glory. That means I'll pick classes that I can "safely" compete in as well as have fun in. Regarding the word "safely", I'm glad to hear the Intermediate level is staying as it seems a good level for racers to enjoy relatively safe competition without getting too close to the occasional erratic Novice or over-competitive Expert (no offence intended to anyone, and I can't say I haven't been either erratic or over-competitive myself).

    I won't even try to make any suggestions for improvement as I think the Exec are doing well. Anyway, each year has a different population of racers, and changing the class structure might be like trying to hit a moving target in the dark. I just look forward to returning and having fun with whatever's there.
     
  20. rustysgsxr

    rustysgsxr Rooster

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    Is it my turn to chime in. I enjoy racing period, whatever class I'm in as long as I have a good time and maybe having a battle throughout the whole race would make it even better. I think that some people could go straight into expert from novice, but I for one think that having intermediate is a good stepping stone for those that may not have the confidence to ride with the experts. On the flip-side, as on track days, most if not all of the experts ride in the fast group as to "keep it safe" out on the track. The lap times playing a big role in safety on the track Along with a slow-medium group that sometimes is a hosh posh of riders with most of the intermediate riders in it. It is the safest way to ride the track- you ride at a 1.14:00 you in this group!

    In the case of safety, I would propose that if the club is trying to thickin up the expert grid, do a time cut off. Like the EMRA, I think it was a 1.02:00 average lap time for the bump to expert. As they also have a small expert grid this will add about 10 more riders to the experts without affecting the intermediate numbers. This keeps the competition level up and everyone can have fun!

    That's my 2 cents, for now ;).
     

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