Elimination of Intermediate?

Discussion in 'Racing at Mission' started by Dean, Oct 23, 2011.

?

Do you support the elimination of the Intermediate class?

Poll closed Jan 21, 2012.
  1. Yes

    21 vote(s)
    41.2%
  2. No

    29 vote(s)
    56.9%
  3. what's an intermediate?

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  1. rustysgsxr

    rustysgsxr Rooster

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    Not that I'm one of the fast fast guys, but I'm putting in a tidbit of my thoughts. I run 5 different classes within the EMRA- senior open, fast 25, 600SS, openSS, and sbk. Two of which are combined intermediate/expert races earlier in the day. As a result of dealing with lapped riders(intermediate) in the senior open race round 2 I was taken out of the race and could not compete the remainder of the day. I would have to say as I don't mind passing lapped riders I think there should be rules/discussions about how/when to pass and when being passes- what to do to make it as safe as possible.

    As for removing a class, I haven't been able to make a definitive answer that would work. I know that every club has a good number of riders that come out to have fun, battle with friends and go back to work on Monday, without expecting a podium on the day. Yes, everyone wants one! I would think that if you love a sport, you'll alway be involved one way or another. I can also understand the "not having fun" part. It's not always fun, for example- do you like to crash? NO, but it's a part of what racing is. Either way the result of this discussion turns out, if you want to race- you will, and you'll enjoy it.

    Now me head hurts, too much thinking...........…ouchy :/
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  2. Lance

    Lance WMRC # 39

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    Dean....I can't figure out how to change my vote in the poll....if you have the ability to change it for me please change it from Yes to NO.
     
  3. ted

    ted asshat

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    I can't believe every year this same issue of classes/rules/bullshit comes up. The one that will give me gas until I die is the new riders bitching about costs, points, and relating chaff. One reason we historically have few new racers last more than a year or two is that newbies don't want to ride RZ's/RD's/F2's/CBR125's because it isn't considered cool or fast enough. Costs for racing with our club is one of the cheapest forms of motorsport in North America, don't believe me? Check on the web some of the costs in other sports. I see guys routinely paying $200 or more each raceday when I'm up in the tower for drag racing, I hear the same bitches, but you know what? There's an alternative, quit racing.

    Why the hell doesn't anyone want to race a smaller bike, or a scooter? We want new blood and the money to sustain our club, but no one wants to just approach the aspect of racing for fun. Brian Ens let me do some laps a couple of years ago on his mini motards and it was more fun than adults be should be allowed to have with their clothes on. Yet we still have the age old issue of a guy buying a newer R6/R1/CBR/whatever to race novice, he crashes, finishes at the rear of the pack, gets discouraged, runs out of money, and never comes back. We see it every year. How do we keep him? If we want a newbie class, and intend to give it some patsy name like clubman, clubwoman, or in my case, slower older guy, make it a CC restriction. And before any of you groan about what a stupid idea it is, anyone remember the great quote "better to ride a slow bike wide open instead of a fast bike at quarter throttle?"

    Make it a cheap class, cheap entry fees, IE: better ten riders at $30 a race than five at $60. One set of spec tires to last the year, throw some more ideas out and before you know it the class might fly.

    And as for our faster racers, your speed doesn't make your requests or whinging about slower riders any more valid than a slower guy complaining about a faster guy giving him attitude about an issue on the track. If there is only six racers in our premium class, tough shit. Economics dictate what and who is on the grid, not what Al Beck, Stef Medlicott, Rick Johnson, Ryan or Deano says or wants, and our attendance is the same for vintage, or superbike. Just more people stay in the stands for superbike, and that's no slag against the vintage guys, just real proof.

    Face it, bike shops are closing, sponsorship money is drying up faster than a sixty year old virgin woman, and in some respects we should be kissing someone's ass that we are still at MRP. Don't forget you guys, I hear the whining at the drag races about us being at the track, we're not well liked by a lot of racers.

    I still think we should be a two tier club, Am and Pro, if guys and girls are going to race they're going to be on the grid regardless of how we structure the classes. And if we lose a racer due to the thought process that Am or Pro is too much for them, that's the risk we take. From what I saw this season, there wasn't enough novices to make the argument about keeping it as a separate class, if there was fifty novices, I'd be the first to congratulate them and do all I could to keep the class and the license designation.

    We need to combine grids, Am and Pro, two waves, make the races longer, more track time keeps racers from grumbling about entry fees, and unless I'm mistaken, as long as there is five bikes to make a class the club will find track time for them so if any new racer is on the fence about speed/close proximity to another bike etc., race a slower class until your confidence is at the place you need to be. And when I started at Westwood we had to wear an X fashioned out of duct tape on the back of our leathers for our first five races I believe, so that the faster guys knew who we were and it is their responsibility to make the pass clean, and if I could survive, anyone can.

    Lastly, if any racer thinks the bigger bike makes them faster, Gary Parrish and Kevin (forget his last name but John Cathie knows who I mean) were spanking me and my Gamma with their RZ350's when I started at Westwood.

    Just something to think about.
     

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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  4. Ryan Whittle

    Ryan Whittle Rider of Orange V-Twins

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    For what it's worth, WERA the largest club in the us has essentially the same setup as us, except they call the intermediates novice and do not have that initial novice stage we do. I'm pretty sure this is how willow springs, miller, the Texas org and other othe do it.

    With all due respect, AFM, OMRRA and WMRRA seem to be the exception, not the rule.

    Honestly I don't care either way, what ever will grow the club is the way I would like to see it.

    Basing your decision on contingency IMO is short sighted and selfish.
     
  5. amartin

    amartin Member

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    Adam's proposal would have freed up enough time to run 2-3 clubman only races, and 2 f118's (both clubman and expert eligible) per day. New novice racers would have raced with the current slower amatuers. Those amatuers would then be the faster fish in their new clubman pool. Expert races would be limited to expert riders but presumably there would be more in those races.

    He never suggested throwing away contingency. His plan simply made it possible for new novices to actually compete for it. He felt race school graduation / race license was enough to certify you ready to race. This is the way it typically works.

    What people can't seem to see is that this is just the combining of novice and half of the amateur into clubman, and half of the amatuer with expert. Both pay contingency, both end up larger, and there is more time for extra classes and/or second races (like a 2nd f118 which most of you I think like).

    Anyways, it doesn't matter. Nobody wants it.
     
  6. *Jay*

    *Jay* Member WMRC Exec

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    I'm with this guy

    I'm with this guy

    So if we only had two tiers (and possibly a hi viz vest to denote the newest riders) you would have had more practice time, availability to the 118 class as soon as you felt comfortable, and a great value for someone just starting out(250 class)

    I'm with this guy

    I'm with this guy

    I'm with this guy

    Maybe we can adopt this to a two tier system and identify the slow/unpredictable?

    I'm with this guy
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  7. Dean Thompson

    Dean Thompson New Member

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    Holy Jay, you remind me of Gilligan from an old Gilligan's Island episode where he kept agreeing with both sides points during an argument, haha. The club is going to grow, regardless of new tracks down south. The 250 class is going to be allot bigger next year and there's a big group of new novices coming out too. I'm already stoked for next season! :dirtbike::scooter:
     
  8. jcathie

    jcathie Member

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    Kevin McDiarmid, I think it was.

    RZ Cup was a blast. Especially when the front 4 or 5 had their rear wheels a foot in the air trying to out brake each other into the Hairpin.
     
  9. Reckless

    Reckless New Member

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    Hey Ted, we do have a small bike class.
    250
    My one set of tires did last me all season, other than the tires, one set of bodywork and a couple of drill bits to get safety wiring figured out my season cost me gas, oil changes and entry fees. That's it.
     
  10. Jaybo

    Jaybo if you want blood

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    I think the club is already setup towards fun racing. In this fashion we make ourselves available to encourage more people to join and race. If that means we're breeding slow racers then so be it. I'm not slow because i've been in intermediate for years, i'm slow because I suck (It seems that no amount of schooling and more of this and less of that is going to change it:() and because I have a family and a job I need to come back to. This is club racing. If you're that good, that young and have that much financial support and want to make a name for yourself then you should be and eventually will be taking your skills and racing elsewhere.
    People are going to race what they want to, you just can't make them race an older or slower bike, not buy tire warmers, etc if they want to. They have to spend their money within their means.
    Having the classes available from the beginning will help them choose properly. Perhaps we need a sticky in the top of one of the forum listing of the classes and what's available, what to expect, how much to spend -sort of a novice racer guide.

    The fact is the Racers will race and continue to do so. The Wannabe's or the financially destitute will eventually drop out. There's many things against us and the execs have done their best to make racing here work.
    There's little to no support from sponsors or spectators here at Mission. The fact is nobody knows we race here is a huge problem, to compound that the fact is there are many who know we race here and don't care to come out because either they hate the track or have other personal reasons.
    The fact that we have to capitulate to the sports car club and the drag strip is another problem, Ie with tear downs & set ups, poor selection of race dates, a oiled track. etc
    The Economy

    The only thing we can fix is the specators and new members. Educate them, people need to know. More exposure, more social media use. The news part of the front page of BCSportbikes was offered, was it not? let's use that. This website is dead much of the time, this is probably one of the largest threads on here -let's make this site work as well. Everyone, not just the execs has to try. Each racer has to take ownership and distribute the posters themselves, perhaps at their workplaces and places that they frequent. Face it marketing firms, radio & TV spots won't happen unless they are pro bono. What about "Area Reps" designated people who can canvas the areas they live in, putting up posters. i see it as having some posters in the car, you stop somewhere.. try to put up a poster.
    Can we somehow get exposure at the Mini Racing and Nancy's Pitt Meadows days?

    the Expert grid is small and people don't want to spend the time in Novice for their first year. Within reason I think that we could speed up the bumping process. Novices that exhibit the proper skill can be bumped faster and many of the faster more skilled intermediate racers can be bumped to expert faster as per either their lap times, wins or finishes in championships as per the rule book -pretty much how it used to be.. eventually there will be more people within expert of their skill level to race with.

    I personally managed to get a friend from work out to watch the races this year, he's not really intertested in motorcycles just wanted to see what it is that we do and have a few hours out with his son. His comments were that he really enjoyed how open the pits were "basically you can go everwhere except on the track" his downside was that he found the races hard to follow.. Basically he found the view from the bleachers to be lacking. Unfortunately, we know there's just not going to be anything done re: more viewing areas.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  11. dammyneckhurts

    dammyneckhurts New Member

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    Years ago there was 2 classes (Amature and Pro) and newbies ran the first 3 races in Novice with an X on their back.

    Anyone have the time to explain to me why the change was made to the current structure of three classes (Novice, Intermediate and Pro)?
     
  12. Jacalyn

    Jacalyn Thread killer....

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    Thanks for clarifying, I went back to the first page for the explanation and it seems some posts were removed.

    My question about contingency was only to see if the loss of the current classes meant that new classes would be formed and therefore offer the same chance to earn your tire fund back. Many people commented at the banquet regarding their tire supporter and contingency, and if it's free money and keeping racers coming back, then perhaps that needs to be kept in the decision-making process?

    Another question is, if those intermediates who would move to clubman and the classes formed for that group of riders, would there be HP limits, bike age limits, cc limits, etc, put on those new classes formed? I am just wondering as there are more than a few intermediates who have the newer bikes, but don't have the lap times to ride in expert, would they be expected to go find a more suitable bike?

    I can see this working if more people understand what is truly going to happen. I haven't voted yet because I haven't got all the facts, jack ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  13. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    Wow, that's some good questions Jac! I'll be the first to admit, if Int was eliminated and we just had "clubman" and expert, I didn't even think that the class structure as we have it would change.

    Maybe I'm just closed minded, but I would envision:

    Clubman FT (First timers) for those new novices
    Battle of the Twins (combined with clubman and expert)
    Middleweight superbike (combined class)
    Formula Classic (combined class)
    Formula TFS (combined class)
    Superbike Expert
    600 Supersport Expert
    Fast 25 Expert
    Formula Whatever (F118) Clubman only

    Morning practices until 12, then racing from 12 to 4. However, I'm just throwing that out here. It would be important to note that *IF* this change was ratified by the members, it would take effect in the 2013 season.

    Other things mentioned: Cheaper racing. Sadly, our track fees will be going up, therefore our race fees will have to go up accordingly too. We already have our fees low enough to just cover our costs, with gate take being our only true source of profitable revenue to buy airfence and other safety equipment. License fees just cover our insurance costs for the year, and race fees cover the cost of track rental, ambulance, cornerworker lunches, security, radios, announcers, and a few other staff functions.

    I'd love to offer money classes, but the funds for the winners have to come from sponsorship. Unless of course people wouldn't mind having superbike entry fees close to $250 for that class alone to cover the money to the winners. I don't know about you, but knowing I'd finish nowhere NEAR the front, I would not pay that kind of money to have it given to someone else without a chance of it going to me.

    I like Kenny, Adam, and Steve, but I don't want to pay them to race with me.
     
  14. ted

    ted asshat

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    I still can't get my head around the morning practise. We are a racing club are we not? One fifteen minute practise in the morning, 8 lap qualifiers, and 20 lap mains after lunch.

    And if I see one more post about spectators/more spectators/educating spectators/Westwood had four thousand spectators blattity, blattity blatt I'm going to puke. We've never had, and never will have, more spectators than what we've historically had. We need more vendors, bike swap meets, stunt guys and girls, police motorcycle drill teams, and I really, really like the taste of racing. The exec's get two huge thumbs up from me for this one, people love it and it's all profit.

    Deano tells the hard truth, our rental costs are huge, and the only way to recoup that is reflected in the costs of the entries. How about we talk openly about the discounts for riding more than one class we used to have? Instead of pondering what buzzword to call ourselves like "clubman", "clubwoman" etc, how about someone coming up with a definitive way to make the racing more enticing? I wouldn't care if there was a class called "LBGT rainbow hetero slower than 1:19's that used to be intermediate" as long as the racing was entertaining, and the entry costs were reasonable.

    Use the off season to deal with the costs we suffer, and how to survive instead of rewriting the racing rulebook. I'll help with registration and announce the next season in return for practise and one race to keep my license current, that's what I can do to help the club.

    :2cents:
     
  15. jcathie

    jcathie Member

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    I think even Ironman Spero would have tough time doing a 20 lap main.

    Go for just a 12 lap dig with Kenny and see how you fare. I campaigned for a longer Superbike race to bring tire wear into the equation but it was explained to me the body and mind would be giving up before the tires did, what with Mission being so tight. Too dangerous.

    We don't have the back straight to relax on like we did at Westwood.
     
  16. ted

    ted asshat

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    Ain't discussion grand Brother John?

    Ok, throw out the 20 lap main, how about adopting WSBK format and go with two 8 lap races? Two rotations in the afternoon so people have a break between their main choices of races, then they have the option of racing a second class or more if so desired.

    Just tossing ideas out..................


    Almost forgot, Kenny hasn't lapped me since Westwood and I'm not going to give him the chance to do it again. Once you seen some freak with a world class mullet lapping you on the outside of 3B on an FZ600 you don't ever want to suffer that again.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  17. tt600

    tt600 New Member

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    are these proposed classes dean? or is this the plan for next year?
     
  18. Jaybo

    Jaybo if you want blood

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    Did I say we need more spectators?:jump:
     
  19. Jayson

    Jayson Highside Racing

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    Lu, I believe Dean is just throwing out names for the sake of discussion at this point. Similar to Adam picking a random time for the cut between clubman and expert. Everything at this point is still discussion, and currently nothing more. What the club decides to do with the class structure in the future is still up in the air.

    Personally I like the current set-up, I am for keeping all 3 levels. I feel that the current system is best for the demographic we have, the track we have, and the current economic situation. That being said, I like the idea of combining Int and Exp grids, where appropriate. (ie 600ss, Openss and Superbike .. Fast25 if it's approved). I am in favor of giving Novices the same amount of practice time that the Int and Exp get. And I like the idea of bumping Novices and Int. earlier than we have been in the past, however, they should be evaluated on track by an Expert level racer/instructor at the pace they will be expected to run in the higher level classification.
     
  20. tt600

    tt600 New Member

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    thanks j,by the way what's the formula TFS?
     

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