2015 Rulebook Proposals

Discussion in 'Rule Book Proposals' started by Andrew Marles, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    Sorry, we can merge threads, but it's not possible to separate them. I'd suggest like Ryan said, to put proposals each in their own thread for discussion.
     
  2. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    They check the website, usually right after dates are announced, and then they'll check points a couple times per year. Points are now stored in the cloud and off our site, so they just go direct, and we cannot even measure that.

    I hate to say it, but the only true way to effectively communicate with the members is to have member meetings with quick resolutions/votes at the riders meetings. That way you get most of them. Other than that, plan on a snail mail campaign. Seriously, most of the members do not frequent websites. They are not part of social media, do not facebook, tweet, 4square, ello, visit forums, or any other method of social networking. We are the rare racing nerds.
     
  3. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    Thanks for the info Dean. I will raise the communication issue with the exec at our next club meeting. I feel we should attempt to get membership input and feedback if any major rule changes are considered.
     
  4. Ryan Whittle

    Ryan Whittle Rider of Orange V-Twins

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    I echo Dean's comments. I think something to consider would be to keep the rulebook as is for 2015, but continue this process we are doing now. Rule committee meets to put forward rule changes that have merit, then licensed racers have the opportunity to vote in person at any race event during 2015. Ballots close at the end of the last race day. Votes are talied and then you have your 2016 rulebook ready to go at the end of 2015.

    Only exception to the above would be something safety related.
     
  5. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of staying with the status quo. Our new exec is looking to make whatever changes are necessary to give us better and more organized racing that reflects our ridership. I think we should entertain any new ideas in support of this and run with those that make sense. Safety issues are a given, bike mods not so difficult, rearranging classes to make the schedule work better for most riders - maybe not a big deal if not taking track time away unless a class is no longer viable.

    We have to address the small bike classes and associated rules. Andrew said there will be no changes for the big bikes but anything that helps them class and schedule wise should be considered. If something doesn't work as planned it can be addressed at rider's meetings and changed immediately as done in the past.

    That said, I still think it's a good idea to post proposed rule and schedule changes on our website and notify members via snail mail before implementing changes. Hopefully we hear about any objections so there's no big surprises/major complaints come race day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2014
  6. cookie

    cookie Two Smokin'

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    My opinion, such as it is: members have the opportunity to be involved, they know they have the opportunity to be involved, yet most won't choose to exercise that right. This does not necessarily indicate apathy, I prefer to think that they are confident that the exec and those it designates as responsible for the rulebook will act in the best interest of all. That said, let members continue to make suggestions on the forum, believe that those with an opinion will voice it, and let the committee discuss the proposals and make sound decisions. I see no real reason to force further communication on everyone, as long as the information is available and the conversation is open to all. I don't see the merit in having all members vote on every rule change. If that is what the club wants, then we don't need a rules committee just a forum moderator.
     
  7. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    Here's a list of the proposals/suggestions for the rules committee to date. Please add any I might have missed.

    1. New Lightweight Supersport Twins class
    2. 600 Supersport/addition of Heavyweight Twins to class
    3. F122 class addition
    4. WCC rider classification
    5. Quick shifters for 250/300 classes
    6. 600cc+ lap times/rider classification re intermediate riders
    7. Formula Ultra laps/change to Superbike or other type of race
    8. Novice Open race schedule/championship class?
    9. Visual aid requirement per provincial/state drivers licence
    10. Notification of membership re rule changes for their input prior to implementation
     
  8. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    I missed a couple of suggestions now added to the list below along with a good one I heard appropriate for #13.

    1. New Lightweight Supersport Twins class
    2. 600 Supersport/addition of Heavyweight Twins to class
    3. F122 class addition
    4. WCC rider classification
    5. Quick shifters for 250/300 classes
    6. 600cc+ lap times/rider classification re intermediate riders
    7. Formula Ultra laps/change to Superbike or other type of race
    8. Novice Open race schedule/championship class?
    9. Visual aid requirement per provincial/state drivers licence
    10. Notification of membership re rule changes for their input prior to implementation
    11. Drop MotoTT depending on intermediate rider lap times/classification
    12. Reduce laps/race to 8
    13. Race credit for track setup/tear down participants
     
  9. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    I agree, though in light of the past perceived lack of transparency/communication I thought it worth "going the extra mile" to inform members of proposed changes and request their feedback - not vote. This may not be necessary now but I'm happy to print, stuff and mail members if necessary.
     
  10. cookie

    cookie Two Smokin'

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    #13 may be a great idea, (suggest it to the exec) but it's not for the rule book committee to decide
     
  11. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    Noted thanks - will remove from list next update. Think this was mentioned at a club meeting so likely being considered by exec already - will raise at meeting. I like the idea of rewarding those who help out rather than just race and leave the heavy lifting to others. The track setup coordinator could issue credit coupons.
     
  12. Jaybo

    Jaybo if you want blood

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    some of my rambling thoughts

    1.New Lightweight Supersport Twins class -yes, absolutely
    2.600 Supersport/addition of Heavyweight Twins to class Yes. Although personally I'd like see them scored. It's hard to justify racing with no scoring. coughBimota.cough
    3.F122 class addition in addition to F118? I'm not sure, what are the details about this proposed class again?
    4.WCC rider classification .. not sure, more research is necessary before I can comfortable comment.
    5.Quick shifters for 250/300 classes My gut says no. I believe the smaller bore racing should focus on being a spec class, grassroots, inexpensive racing, with limited modifications. me. other than that i'm not too concerned, as even If I was allowed to run a quickshift I still wouldn't.
    6.600cc+ lap times/rider classification re intermediate riders This is a tough one. I'm not entirely certain bringing "intermediate" back will bring racers back, but i'm fairly certain it will make things more complicated. "intermediates" will have to be running combined races anyways.
    7.Formula Ultra laps/change to Superbike or other type of race Yes, Formula Ultra needs a revamp or do-over.
    8.Novice Open race schedule/championship class? I'm fine with Novice open staying a championship class.
    9.Visual aid requirement per provincial/state drivers licence of course, no brainer. it's gobsmacking to think people might try to race without being able to see properly
    10.Notification of membership re rule changes for their input prior to implementation This is what we are trying to do. I would like to see the current structure move forward as it is for the 2015 rulebook, because were looking to make changes now for 2015. however going forward perhaps we can have a handout flyer or notice board in tech for propsals during the season. this way the membership that are only involved at race days can have the opportunity to be aware if they so choose.
    11.Drop MotoTT depending on intermediate rider lap times/classification There's a lot of suggestions regarding changes to class structures, there's only so many classes we can realistically run in a day. That said I liked the spirit of the class and as it hasn't existed for a whole season I'd sort of hate to see it go
    12.Reduce laps/race to 8 see above, addition of new classes and the need to make more room in the schedule. alot of times races are already reduced to 8 laps beacuse of time constraints my fear is where does this end? next we'll have 6 lap races? 4? time constraints are a huge problem
    13.Race credit for track setup/tear down participants yes, no brainer. We need more participation, if this is one way to make that happen i'm all for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2014
  13. Marbod

    Marbod Rubbin's racin'

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    My 2 cents after reading all the posts/suggestions :

    1: Definitely agree that class is needed given the influx of riders on these bikes( as an aside without going into detailed reasoning in this post, as Ryan said, I think it would be cheaper to allow race gas than to open up engine modifications that can get much more expensive and hard to police).

    2. I think 1000CC twins should be allowed to run w 600s AND be scored. by limiting it to 1000cc , it eliminates all the current crop of Superbike Twins that are all over 1000cc. We need more entries in that class anyway and hopefully somebody will bring an RC51 or a 916 or a TLR out to play. Twins sound great too as a bonus.

    3. Not sure about ANOTHER bracket racing class. There's only so far we should have to go so that everyone has a chance at a trophy. I've always looked at it from the standpoint of that if I had 1 class that my bike/me was competitive in I was happy. I used extra classes for practice/a way too push myself against faster riders/bikes.

    4.WCC. Really need more info from the liaison between the 2 clubs to see what both clubs are thinking.

    5. I don't think quickshifters are needed/required for a class that's supposed to be the epitome of cheap grass-roots racing.

    6. Intermediates. Seems like this issue never goes away for long, does it? Pro Intermediate : Another chance for a trophy and a Championship to tell your grandkids about. I can't think of one other reason for it, as, if the Inter and Expert races are combined(as they will have to be due to our small grids), the likelihood of being lapped will remain the same, so no safety gains there. Also, and for some members of the club this may be too long ago, but I VERY well remember the drama and shenanigans people went through in past years to avoid being moved up from Intermediate to Expert( really pathetic in some cases). Unless the plan is to allow everyone to remain in Inter as long as they want so they can be big fish in a little pond endlessly. If we had 20+ grids though like in the past I see no issue with splitting it up again though and dealing with the graduation drama every year. If there are any compelling reasons to re-introduce Intermediate at this point I am completely open to them. If you have any , please let me know.

    7.Formula Ultra/Superbike. Sure , we can change it to 1 SBK race or 2/day. We can change the amount of laps also depending on which option we go with. 2 things I'd like to point out : I've only heard about 1 person being interested in coming back to that class if it was lowered to less laps. Tail wagging the dog? Also, Formula Ultra at this point determines the #1 overall plate for the club. What's the suggestion for if replacing/eliminating this class to determine #1 plate? If we retain Ultra, shortening it to a 6-8 lap sprint is in my case not worthy of determining the WMRC championship. Personally -especially given the changing ridership and number of small bike entries- I would have no problem with the OVERALL points scored in a season determining the #1 plate (1 through 5 actually). They tried that at WMRRA a few years back and Oliver Jervis got VERY close to #1 overall on his SV650. They changed that again after pushback from the racers, the majority of which rides on 600+cc bikes there. Here though, 250s and other smaller bikes are a very large part of the membership that actually shows up and races and I don't see why a smallbore racer who does well in numerous classes-against more competition- should not be able to claim #1 plate. Guys like Spero who also runs 4 classes on his 600 would still have the same chance at earning a large haul of points , making it fair for everyone. What does everyone think about that?

    8. I don't think Open Novice being a Championship class has any bearing on racers' "boneheaded" riding. It's called "novice" just for that reason. I'm fine with it remaining a championship class, everyone else gets one, why not them?

    9. Really, lets just apply common sense here instead of having to add ANOTHER rule . Of course, if you are blind as a bat you shouldn't be out there and if someone has information that a fellow competitor is unsafe due to something like that, go see your rider rep , he'll see a member of the competition committee/executive and we will follow up on it that raceday. There are already provisions in rulebook to deal with it.

    10. I am AGAIN posting here my preference for this procedure: 1: 2 weeks of open Forum for members/ rulebook committee members to suggest rules. 2: Rulebook committee meets and weeds out/ discusses pros and coins of proposed changes, puts them in Rulebook terms (within 2-3 weeks of online rulebook suggestions closing) then presents them to membership online to give final input , then implement what the majority of members agrees with. ideally, I would like to see online voting , but due to the club not adhering to the original real Name as User name policy , I don't see how we could implement this at this point without major work.

    11. Not really sure about the resistance to MotoTT(and not because I was the one proposing it last year)? The idea for that class was to have an "Intermediate" class for people that weren't fast enough against the likes of Spero/Bez/James etc. MotoTT avoids the drama of Intermediate graduating (see my post #6) and I thought it worked pretty well actually, the number of entries was good. But if people don't want it (just like any class), away it goes.

    12. Reducing races to 8laps/race. Not a fan of that at all. 8 laps of racing equals ~10minutes per race. Quite a few people only run 2 races/day, this really cuts down even more on their track time. Even if you reduce the entry fees it still makes for a very short day and you get to thinking to yourself " what's the point of dragging all my gear here and spend 20 minutes on track for ~$200/day? " I would also suggest that MORE, not less, tracktime makes riders safer as it's seat time that improves bike handling skills , not sitting in the pits benchracing. If we need more tracktime to accommodate all these extra classes that are being suggested, I would propose the following: 1. Cut lunch from 1 hour to 30-45 minutes. 2. Eliminate the 2nd practice session in the morning (add 5 minutes to each one, we'd still be ~30 minutes ahead that way), I haven't seen the need for a 2nd one in years, 10-15 laps is more than enough to get "racy" /scrub in tires/try out modifications.

    13. All for it , great idea. One approach that OMRRA tried a few years ago was to shuffle the afternoon races around every day to give different people a reason to stick around and help with teardown.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  14. Ryan Whittle

    Ryan Whittle Rider of Orange V-Twins

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    Agree with all Marbod said, just wanted to add some additional info.

    Adding Intermediate again makes scoring and gridding a bigger exercise and more taxing on volunteers. Not sure if anyone noticed, but we don't seem to have an over abundance of volunteers.

    Same as above for moving to 2 superbike races. If you don't believe me, ask Gail Lalonde how she liked doing gridding and scoring with all those extra classes.

    I'm not sure if any of the above is impacted by the adoption of AMB.

    If we are talking about bringing things back, I wouldn't mind seeing qualifiers making a comeback. Felt like we were getting a bit more racing in.
     
  15. Marbod

    Marbod Rubbin's racin'

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    One problem with bringing Qualifiers back is that it'll create even more gridding/paperwork work for whoever is doing it which you pointed out is not easy to do. Plus you're adding a warmup and cooldown lap to these qualifiers as well . That's not even considering the extra time to clear course, grid up, wait for the inevitable slow poke going out/dawdling on the warmup lap, and doing a race start. Might as well run a full race in that time as it would only take and extra 7-10 minutes to run a full 10 laps.
     
  16. *Jay*

    *Jay* Member WMRC Exec

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    My thoughts on the list:

    1.New Lightweight Supersport Twins class
    Yes!
    2.600 Supersport/addition of Heavyweight Twins to class
    Yes! as said above they should also be scored.
    3.F122 class addition
    Why would we need another bracket race? I enter into sportsman with a Ninja 250. That class has a 1:18 cut off, the fastest I have managed so far is a 1:23 and the fastest lap by a 250 was 1:21 (no quick shifter by the way). So chances are a 250 or 300 won't win this bracket race, but still gets the benefit of additional tracktime.
    4.WCC rider classification
    I have nothing for you here.
    5.Quick shifters for 250/300 classes
    I have said it before, allow it and let the riders decide what they want to do. I also caution those riders to not bother, unless they can consistently bang off 1:21's and then want to shave tenths. That is all a quickshifter is going to do for you if it is working properly.
    6.600cc+ lap times/rider classification re intermediate riders
    I don't see a good reason to introduce Intermediate classification at this point. We already have graduated novice don't we?
    7.Formula Ultra laps/change to Superbike or other type of race
    If our local race club wants to have a "premier" class it should be a challenge. 6-8 laps is not a challenge. I don't race in formula ultra, but have watched, and have not heard of someone using forced induction or nitrous. May as well have one superbike race for 20+laps, but that's just my opinion. If we did this then Superbike champion would be #1 plate holder. Or, as Marbod suggested, total points scored determines 1-5.
    8.Novice Open race schedule/championship class?
    The novice is the one who would best be served by a reward, they deserve a championship!
    9.Visual aid requirement per provincial/state drivers licence
    c'mon man
    10.Notification of membership re rule changes for their input prior to implementation
    Marbod made a good suggestion for how this could be improved
    11.Drop MotoTT depending on intermediate rider lap times/classification
    Are we suggesting to replace MotoTT with the proposed f122/Intermdiate championship? I am confused here:confused:
    12.Reduce laps/race to 8
    I find a certain amount of humor in the notion of fewer laps. Am I the only one that watches moto3 or SBK and imagines himself out there fighting for a position with the best? Those are races with 20-30 laps or what works out to around 40 minutes of racing. I would rather reduce the number of races in a day and have more laps per race.
    13.Race credit for track setup/tear down participants
    Great idea!:bow:
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  17. GaryM.

    GaryM. Live and uncensored

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    I'm with Jay, but I'm a bit of a follower!:bow:
     

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