2015 Rulebook Proposals

Discussion in 'Rule Book Proposals' started by Andrew Marles, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. Andrew Marles

    Andrew Marles Moderator

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    To kick off our Rulebook proposals, I’d like to make the following suggestions. These classes have come about from various discussions within the executive and with the membership. I think that with these changes plus some juggling of our schedule we will be able to create more opportunities for a wider variety of riders and bikes, without sacrificing any of our existing classes that are still running.

    Lightweight Supersport Twins
    This is the main class for the new 300s and a bump class for the 250s. Should follow Supersport rules, ie a little more permissive than the 250s (quickshifters yes) but still relatively economical (big engine builds and fork swaps no):
    • All motorcycles must be based on road going models, no MX based bikes or motors.
    • Up to 320cc twin-cylinder, four-stroke motorcycles.
    • Up to 400cc single-cylinder, four-stroke motorcycles.
    • Street legal pump gas only (87-94 octane). Pump gas is defined as gasoline currently available from a normal service station pump in BC, designed to run in street legal vehicles. No post-pump fuel additives allowed.
    • 40 HP limit at the wheel measured on WMRC dyno.

    I'm not sure precisely what the HP limit should be, but we want to allow a Kawi 300 to be mildly tuned to be more competitive with the Yam 320 and KTM.

    600 Supersport/Heavyweight Twins
    Since there is very little participation we are not planning on running heavyweight twins as their own class next year. Instead I propose that we allow Supersport spec 1000cc twins to enter 600 supersport but their results will not count towards the championship.

    I would like the rulebook committee to consider allowing 1000cc twins to score in the class since the lap times are pretty close to 600s around Mission. Certainly we might need to make a rule to keep the 999r out, but the idea is to give the older Ducs, RC51s and RSV1000s a place to race where they are not outclassed. We can certainly revisit this if we get more bikes out.

    F122
    Sportsman rules with 1:22 cutoff (To be reviewed by competition committee until a good cutoff is decided).
    No bikes more than 500cc four stroke or 250cc two stroke. No GP bikes either. This is designed to be a sportsman class for the 250 and 300cc riders plus any CBR500s (or GS/EX500s for that matter) that come out.

    The exec has already been discussing where we will put these new classes in our schedule.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2014
  2. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 New Member

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    hi andrew, my only concern with the combined SS?twins is that if the wcc could be made a reality again, this is 2 of the wcc classes. (i believe heavy twins is our formula thunder?) i think it just leads to a situation where the possibility of being held up by a slower rider when not directly competing for points, while the next guy in your class is getting away is not a good thing. at least if it is your own class, the guy you need to get past is still worth points. if that makes sense.
     
  3. Andrew Marles

    Andrew Marles Moderator

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    Hey Shane, I see what you are saying and it's a valid point. That said, we already have the situation where the amateur and expert classes are gridded/racing together, so whether the rider is on a 600 or a 1000 twin, you could still be held up by a rider you're not technically 'racing.' What we have done in the past with combined races is to just score the race by finishing order so if you finish 3rd overall but 2nd in your class you get points for your 3rd place. That way you are always racing the person around you. It is not a perfect solution, but this is club racing and we need to get the most out of our limited track time and I want to get away from races with 3-4 riders just circulating the track.

    Note that we did not have a single entry in the HWT class last year (including WCC), and we only had 1 bike at the track all year that could have entered HWT. I think that one thing we need to do to keep the WCC going is to see what classes are actually viable. I want to give the people that have the 1000cc bikes a place to have a fun race since people with 1200s and V4s can race competitively in OSS and Superbike but the 1000s are kind of orphaned and I know there are a few out there that don't come around anymore because of that. But I certainly appreciate your perspective and thank you for taking the time to see what we're up to.
     
  4. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    Further to the discussion about the pros and cons of quick shifters for the 250 and 300 classes I propose they be allowed for both classes. Although I'm a proponent of keeping these classes cost effective it seems quick shifters on small bikes are more of a shift preference rather than offering any significant performance advantage. Many 250 riders will be racing in both the 250 and 300 classes so it doesn't make sense to allow quick shifters for one class and not the other.

    I also propose having 2 groups for Open Supersport, Superbike and Formula Ultra that would run at the same time. Group A (less than 1:15 lap times) followed by Group B (1:15-1:20 lap times) in wave starts. Depending on the number of laps very few of the B riders would be lapped by the A riders. This would allow B riders to be competitive with similar riders same as the MotoTT class last season. Running both groups at the same time would free up track time for 2 Superbike races and other classes. Having more than half a dozen bikes on the grid would also be more exciting for spectators too.
     
  5. Andrew Marles

    Andrew Marles Moderator

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    I think that what you're describing there Steve is almost the return of the Expert/Intermediate classification. That's something that a few people have been talking about for sure. Do we want to consider having the 'intermediate' bikes run red numbers again?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  6. Dean Thompson

    Dean Thompson New Member

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    Yes, I believe we should bring back Intermediate classification (should have never been disbanded in the first place). You'll more than likely see a few racers that left after being forced into Expert class return to the club. There are allot of Intermediate "lifers" who are more than happy to stay there (which is fine as long as they aren't on the podium every race). It's still a sore point with allot of club members since it was voted against by the majority and the exec axed it anyways.
     
  7. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    I believe the Novice/Expert licence classification came about due to reciprocal licence arrangements with other clubs. I don't see any reason to change this but am suggesting splitting the Expert riders based on lap times to allow for better rider development, competition and efficient use of track time. We are more likely to attract and retain racers if they are actually racing rather than doing laps.
     
  8. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    I say, name some clubs within 1000kms of the area that have Intermediate riders, *other* than the EMRA?

    Right? None!

    The correct answer was none. If you haven't noticed, the WMRC went from a 3 classification system (expert, Intermediate, and Novice) to a...yup...3 classification system (Expert, Grad Novice, Novice). The only main change was that Grad Novices would be allowed to enter Expert races. They just would not be scored separately. That's why we introduced the Novice Championship. Now the novice class is a champ class! It's scored, and year end winners get accolades and trophies.
     
  9. cookie

    cookie Two Smokin'

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    Does WERA race within 1000 kms? Because they have intermediate, they just use the name Novice.

    From their rule book:

    1. Riders will be ranked according to ability and will be assigned “Provisional Novice”, “Novice” or “Expert” status.

    2. Experts and Novices will be awarded points and awards separately unless noted in the class description. For example, the first Expert-ranked rider in a combined Expert/Novice race earns first-place Expert points and awards: the first Novice-ranked rider in a combined Expert/Novice race earns first-place Novice points and awards regardless of overall finishing position.

    3. Novices finishing in the top 3 in any of their Sportsman classes at the Grand National Finals and/or in the top five in points in any class in any Region may be advanced to Expert status the following season. Novice riders not meeting the above criteria may apply for advancement to Expert status by submitting a written request to WERA Headquarters, which may or may not be allowed pending review of the rider’s performance and finishes by WERA Headquarters. Riders may decline advancement via writing or email to WERA Headquarters if they feel they are not ready to compete on the Expert level, and may or may not be allowed to retain Novice status pending review of the rider’s performance and finishes by WERA Headquarters.

    4. A rider may apply to move down in status from Expert to Novice if: a) he has not competed for more than one year; or b) he is being beaten consistently by Novice riders. Riders may or may not be allowed to move down in status pending review of the rider’s performance and finishes by WERA Headquarters.



    When this discussion happened before a lot of guys used the argument "back in the old days we just had pro and amateur and it worked fine". Well that may be true, but if we really wanted to go back to that model we should have eliminated Novice and had newbies race with the amateurs with an "X" duct taped on their backs.

    I'd really like to hear the point of view of some racers or past racers who were affected by the change and opinions from everyone about if the membership thinks this change had a positive, negative or neutral effect on the club.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2014
  10. Dean Thompson

    Dean Thompson New Member

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    Almost seems like a patronizing comment towards me, but I'll bite. This EMRA you speak of, is this the same one the WMRC races the WCC with? Oh yeah! I guess having the same rider classification would be useful in that respect. When the WMRC made the classification change, there were allot of riders forced into Expert that left and have not returned. Do you want me to start naming names? As I (and many others) stated when the talk about getting rid of the Int class began, who gives two shits what they do in the USA?
     
  11. cookie

    cookie Two Smokin'

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    I think that is a valid question, why would we worry about matching our rules with clubs whose members don't come up here to race? Is it really a big problem for a WMRC intermediate to register as an expert with OMRRA or WMRRA?

    The real question to answer is this IMO: Did the elimination of intermediate classes benefit the WMRC?
     
  12. ryno11

    ryno11 New Member

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    this is going to be a interesting thread to watch going forward!!
     
  13. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    It was not meant to be patronizing.

    Yes, start naming names. All I've ever heard is "lots". Let's quantify this.

    I'm of the mind that intermediate never left, it just had a name change to match our closest clubs. It was something we were trying, so we could get those riders that ride in those clubs to come up and ride with us because the structure matched. It's easier to entice someone to drive 2 to 3 hours to race, than to entice someone 12+ hours away to race. Our numbers are dwindling. The club has to change something to try to increase ridership. That was one thing we tried. We renamed intermediate to graduated novice, and instead of having 7+ separate classes, which we did not have the ridership to allow, we did reduce the championships.

    That being said, we also reduced our trophy fees from $6000+ per season to less than 1/2 of that. You also may not have noticed, but sponsorship (which is now viewed by sponsors as "charity"), is also severely down, so we can't exactly afford to have a trophy structure like we did. All these things tie together into a bigger picture.
     
  14. Dean Thompson

    Dean Thompson New Member

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    You were on the Exec when Ken and Robarts were adamant about this class change. I called them out on it: trying to increase the field so they'd have more bikes on the expert grid (then after the races they'd complain about the lappers not getting out of their way). Good times. Why can't you guys ever look back on changes and admit some were not the best idea? Instead, you'll argue that it was "in the clubs best interest". I will not name names of Int riders who checked out after being bumped to expert. I'm not THAT big of an asshole. If you want to know, you can go back into the club history and check yourself, see which Intermediate's didn't return the following season after being forcefully bumped to Expert. I like to think the new exec has balls enough to stand their ground when being pushed by certain factions, and do what the majority wants, not what the "cool group" wants. I'm going to try and bite my tongue now.
     
  15. HWY99

    HWY99 Team Green

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    The attrition rate for Intermediate riders could be due to many factors so finger pointing and blaming past executives for this and other problems isn't constructive or helpful moving forward. I'm sure past executives made decisions based on the information at the time with the best of intentions to improve the club. We should be grateful for their contributions and pull together to make any changes necessary to keep the club healthy.

    I was told the Expert classification is more about consistent race lines without falling or endangering other riders rather than lap times. My lap times are similar to the previous Intermediate classification and the few riders I have been racing have been steadily declining. There seemed to be a good number of Intermediate riders when I started racing in 2011 that have moved on to smaller bikes (which I have also thought about) or other tracks. When entering Expert races I always hope there is at least one rider to dice with along with the goal of not being lapped. It would be good if the Experts in the 1:15-1:20 range on 600-1000cc bikes could race each other in a meaningful way and be awarded accordingly. There is no guarantee this would attract more racers but a waved start using existing track time provides a full day of racing for Intermediate riders on big bore bikes. More entries could offset additional trophy costs.

    I believe standardized rider classifications and reciprocal licence arrangements with other clubs in our immediate geographic area is important. However, we should do our best to organize our classes, schedule and skill levels to maximize the fun and value factors for our membership.
     
  16. *Jay*

    *Jay* Member WMRC Exec

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    I would be interested in knowing who left the club based on the elimination of intermediate. Seriously, did this actually happen?
     
  17. Dean

    Dean Just a beer league racer

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    Okay, I'll take the names from the Intermediates that year (2012):
    Jay Shapka - Won the season, would have been bumped under any rules - retired and doesn't race motorcycles anywhere
    Kareem Venkataya - 2nd in the season, would have been bumped. Came back, and is now in school and bikeless. One my best friends. Will be back
    Al Hay - Came back and grumbled a bit about it, but then had knee surgery. Not sure why he's not back.
    Lu Veneziano - came back and raced as an expert. Should have been bumped the year before, but was missed for some reason. Did not like the intermediate change.
    Eddie MacNaughton - I have no idea why he was classified as intermediate. Has been a race instructor and expert for a long time. Owns a shop and has no time to race.
    Mark Raison - sold his stuff. Too expensive to race.
    Erwin Chiong - comes and races occasionally. Not dedicated to the sport. Was in my race school when I took it.
    Mike Thompson - came back and raced. Was on the exec until 2014.
    Ryan Welton - Had a family and can't afford to race or get hurt with his current career. Sold his race bike and still comes to visit. Another one of my best friends.
    Thad Klassen - Moved to Calgary.
    Nigel Ward - Nigel has been back a few times, but is not dedicated to racing.
    Myles Koene - Unsure what happened to Myles. He may have left over the bump to expert.
    Andrew Marles - was bumped and was still dedicated to the sport. Is your new president.
    Alf Ayling - Unsure why Alf left. Could be intermediate related.
    Joe Rupich - Came back. Destroyed bike in Thunderhill. Does not race anymore.
    Jason Hanson - was nervous about the change. Came back and raced. Eventually switched classes to 250 2 years later.
    Brett Hanson - was nervous about the change. Came back and raced in a new class (MWT)

    We put both Ken and Adam off for a couple of years, but the more we thought of it, the more it seemed to make sense. The rulebook committee made the change. My exec and I stood by it, and I still stand by it today. Was it the best decision? Probably not, but hey, you know LOTS of racers that never came back, yet, I can only see 2 in the list of intermediates above.

    Everyone seems to think that as soon as they see one or two people pissed off, that it's everyone. I say quantify the statements. That's possibly 2 out of 17.

    This sport is EXPENSIVE. Not a lot of people can afford to do this. Even the "Cheap" 250 racing takes some bucks to get into it and even if people make the plunge, if the passion doesn't grip them completely, like it does to us, then they can't justify the expenses. Then when we have a reduced ridership, this club has to reduce expenses in different ways, and that's never popular either. Our biggest enemy is The Ridge. It's world class and not far away. It takes away our riders, and even makes new riders want to go there and not here. Decisions have to be made while looking at decreased ridership. Why do you think that the new exec is looking at expanding the 250s and 300s? Because that's where the growth is...where is the sacrifice going to be made to make room for that? In the bike bikes! Who's not gonna like it? The big bike owners...

    Again, we RENAMED intermediate to Graduated Novice.
     
  18. Dean Thompson

    Dean Thompson New Member

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    Fair enough, but lets add the names of the guys who sucked it up and came back for the first season of being forced into expert. After getting their ass spanked hard they left and didn't return. This will add several names to the list. But this is all history, so I don't want to waste anymore energy thinking negative thoughts. I do agree with you that WMRRA and the Ridge are a bigger concern to the future of our club, and 250's are our saviour!!
    :dirtbike:
     
  19. Andrew Marles

    Andrew Marles Moderator

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    For the record, in the coming year the big bikes will have exactly the same number of classes and races that they have had in previous years. So far there is no change proposed that affects the big bike classes, rather we are finding ways to make things more fun and interesting for the smaller bikes and get them out on the track for more races. This is very important to me as I want to preserve the opportunity for the large displacement riders to come out and race with us, and I want them to see that Mission still gives them good value.

    My personal opinion is that the intermediate classification is less important than it was when it was first changed. Riders that want to compete at a lower level on the big bikes have MotoTT and Sportsman where they can do that, and for them the other classes are bump-up races. In fact MotoTT is a better experience because you aren't sharing the track with experts, so it really allows you to focus on your race. Riders that compete on smaller bikes (MWSBK and down) were unaffected by the switch and will continue to be unaffected. I do question the wisdom of splitting up the supersport and superbike classes. You may very well end up with 2 classes that have too few bikes to score instead of one class that does. That said, it is really up to the rulebook committee to come up with a package that makes sense and balances the competing needs and desires of the club membership, and it's the exec's job to make it all happen on race day.
     
  20. DEFBOY35

    DEFBOY35 New Member

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    one thing in regards to the class structure that i see. and of course i look at everything from a wcc perspective being from a visiting club. leave as is, but maybe for the wcc weekend, a look at having riders in the wcc classes "split" based off of an "intermediate" lap time cut off. this way, the " intermediate " racers are actually able to be in the running for the wcc's instead of just 2 guys. and i see the point of not getting too carried away with this, as you also dont want to cut down the expert grid to only a few riders either.
    the combined grid is fine, i actually really enjoyed it the last 2 seasons down there. and was happy to see the emra adopt it this season with the bigger track, although in a waved start format. definitely cuts down on the schedule crunch not having to have separate races. does make timing and scoring a little bit more of a pain in the ass though i would imagine.
     

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